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okay welcome everybody to the last of

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the talks before the panel discussion in

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the symposium and it's a it's a real

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pleasure again to

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introduce

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uh garrett medell who's a professor of

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electrical computer

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and energy engineering at the university

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of colorado

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his research group pursues new energy

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conversion technologies

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and other sciences um other science at

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the edge of our understanding prior to

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his academic position he worked in

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silicon valley solar cell startups where

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he sought entrepreneur entrepreneurial

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money and has caught the entrepreneurial

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bug

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that's he says continues to plague him

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uh garrett earned his bachelor's ee from

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stanford ms and phd and applied physics

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from from harvard

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among all the people i've known over the

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years garrett has one of the most active

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minds and most ambitious and fascinating

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research

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programs and this

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of his talk i'm sure will evidence this

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um but i'd like to

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finish the introduction with just

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continuing his

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uh motif of moby dick

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ishmael as you know is

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the first person narrator in in moby

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dick and and uh

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garrett is the first person narrator i

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think of this of this particular

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symposium

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and also the protagonist um

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unlike captain ahab

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ishmael kept an open mind with respect

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to moby dick and yes you'll find in this

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talk garrett will keep an open mind with

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respect to the second law

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his mind is always in motion

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and

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um as melvin

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melville said about ishmael

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the flux in turn is the chief

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characteristic

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of ishmael himself

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so we shall call you ishmael

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garrett

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best for last

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contingent

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you captain

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um

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are we i just want to check are we

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recording

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i can't tell uh yes we are

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okay good all right thanks very much

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folks uh so last year i talked about

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extracting zero point energy at the ape

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conference and also at a the last sse

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conference what i want to do today is

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quickly go over those results and then

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extend the discussion to talk about

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really the question of what's what are

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the underlying principles here what's

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happening do we violate the second law

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and spoiler alert it's ambiguous

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okay so

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let's take a look at what uh the

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contents are going to be so i'll be

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talking about zero point energy

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in general and the problems in

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harvesting it then we'll talk about our

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device and uh how we might be able to

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actually harvest it and what results

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we're getting then i'll talk about the

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whole issue of virtual particles because

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virtual particles for the quantum vacuum

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are are a fundamental and somewhat

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puzzling issue

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we'll get into the second law of

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thermodynamics and also the first one

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too and whether we're violating it and

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then finally i'll have some questions to

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ask you

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about this whole phenomena

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these phenomena

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so let's start off and just talk in

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general about zero point energy

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so we know that the background that the

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general background contains

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electromagnetic fields

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in 1900 planck came up with the

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description

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of

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the spectrum and this is the well-known

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planck formula the first theory which

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shows that the electric field that the

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electromagnetic field distribution at a

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given temperature is a function of that

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temperature

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then in 1911 he extended his theory to

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the second theory

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in which he talked about the need for an

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additional term which was a temperature

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independent term

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this became known as the zero point

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energy term because it exists

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even in the absence of any temperature

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later we'll see that it comes again

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this term so if we take a look at the

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spectrum this is a plot of the energy

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density of the electromagnetic spectrum

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as a function of photon energy down here

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we've got infrared photons visible light

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photons and then ultraviolet light

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and we can see the black body spectrum

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the well-known planck distribution and

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it peters out by the time we get to the

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visible light and that's why at room

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temperature we don't see all the

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radiation around us it's in the infrared

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but there is this radiation that extends

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up as frequency cubed

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that

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exists from this last term from the zero

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point energy and that's the quantum

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vacuum energy that we're talking about

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and so a question is can we use it well

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the first question is how much energy is

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there

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this shows the energy i've done a little

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calculation to see what is the

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power that you can get from it

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and what in particular what is the

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current so if we take a look at all of

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the

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from long wavelengths going out to

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about down to about sorry up to about 4

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electron volts which corresponds to

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about 0.3 microns

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the

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current that we can get from that photon

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flux if we could capture it as photons

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is huge it's 1.7 giga amps per square

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meter

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so there's there's a lot there it's it's

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worth looking at if we can get it

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this zero point energy

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uh was

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originally proposed by planck but it's

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really been come to people have come to

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understand it in terms of the

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uncertainty principle there are several

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ways as you know for expressing the

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uncertainty principle one is that the

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uncertainty in energy times the

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uncertainty in time

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uh

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is

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has certain limits you can't know both

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absolutely precisely

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and so the consequence of this

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is that there must be fluctuations and

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the shorter the time that we look at for

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those fluctuations the larger the energy

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can be

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so if we want substantial energies

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they're at very short times

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okay so what are the problems in trying

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to harvest this energy and there are a

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number of different discussions about it

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i'll talk about really two basic uh

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problems in trying to get the energy one

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is that it's the universal ground state

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and since it's the universal ground

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state that means that we can't induce a

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flow

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by having a change in its density

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because it's the same everywhere

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the second is that these fluctuations

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are extremely short-lived

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so let's take a look at these in turn

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can we modify the ground state and most

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of you know that yes in fact we can it

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would be a little bit like uh having an

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ocean

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a sea level and we could then all of a

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sudden dig out like moses a little

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region of the sea that was at a lower

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level

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so if we could do that with the vacuum

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energy and dig out a region which is at

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a lower level then we could induce a

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flow and we can do that with the casimir

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cavity

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most of you know this was developed by

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casimir in 1948 and then finally um

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proven to work

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at the end of the 20th century the basic

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idea is that we've got two closely

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spaced mirrors in between these mirrors

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we have

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the boundary conditions at the mirror

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saying that the electric field goes to

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zero and so we have a restricted number

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of modes it's an integer number of half

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wavelengths that can exist within this

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region whereas outside we have the full

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spectrum

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therefore there's more radiant energy

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outside the inside there's a net force

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and these two plates should collapse and

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in fact

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they do

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uh what i'd like to take from this for

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today's discussion is that this is sort

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of a

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it blocks all the low frequency along

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wavelength modes

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in the zero-point energy spectrum

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all right so we talked about modifying

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the ground state what about these

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short-lived fluctuations

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uh there is a quantum inequality

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developed by larry ford a number of

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years ago

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and he says that an energy delta e

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may be borrowed from the quantum vacuum

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for a time delta t

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and so it's an uncertainty like relation

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uh i'm here putting it into

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the uncertainty uh uh

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formalism although this

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it made the number here may not actually

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be

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h bar over 2 planck's constant

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over 4 pi

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but instead maybe a different number but

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it's something like that and so the

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basic idea is that

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you can have

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radiation

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uh that can have a substantial amount of

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energy delta e if you look at it for

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just a short enough time so these things

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bop in and out of

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existence these these photons and uh

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pairs

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of virtual particles pop in and out of

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existence so how much energy and how

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much time

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if you say we want to ev light two

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electron volt light which is red

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uh then

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that

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borrowed for

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is

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less than a femtosecond about a tenth of

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a femtosecond so extremely short it's

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it's they're just

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very very ephemeral

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all right

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so this is borrowing energy from the

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vacuum

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what would happen if we were sneaky and

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we borrowed the energy and captured it

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quickly

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uh what would happen then

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can you do that

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uh

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the

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traditional physics has not addressed

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that

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all right so now we've talked about zero

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point energy let's now talk about our

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devices and then get into the results

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the basic device consists of a metal

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insulator metal structure so this is a

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thin metal it's semi-transparent it's a

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very thin insulator which allows

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electrons to tunnel or

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hop over

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this barrier and then the base metal is

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a little bit thicker

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so if we imagine this thing just sitting

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00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:34,480
in

292
00:11:40,550 --> 00:11:38,160
we've got

293
00:11:43,269 --> 00:11:40,560
zero point energy modes

294
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:43,279
in the base metal these are dominantly

295
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:44,000
for

296
00:11:50,710 --> 00:11:47,360
visible light and uh energies these are

297
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:50,720
dominantly uh in the form of plasmons

298
00:11:55,829 --> 00:11:53,040
and so these plasmons will have a

299
00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:55,839
distribution uh there'll be fluctuations

300
00:12:00,389 --> 00:11:57,760
that can create a sufficiently hot

301
00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:00,399
electron to go across the barrier to the

302
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:02,240
top metal

303
00:12:09,910 --> 00:12:07,680
to be these plasmons powered by zero

304
00:12:13,829 --> 00:12:09,920
point energy that will create electrons

305
00:12:18,550 --> 00:12:15,990
but this top metal is a little bit

306
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:18,560
thinner so there were fewer of those

307
00:12:25,350 --> 00:12:22,079
electrons on the other hand there also

308
00:12:28,069 --> 00:12:25,360
are the external vacuum energy modes and

309
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:28,079
so these external vacuum energy modes

310
00:12:30,629 --> 00:12:28,959
can

311
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:30,639
energize an electron by the

312
00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:33,760
photoelectric effect that electron that

313
00:12:38,790 --> 00:12:37,040
hot electron might be able to traverse

314
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:38,800
this thin metal

315
00:12:43,430 --> 00:12:41,120
go through across the insulator and get

316
00:12:45,509 --> 00:12:43,440
to the bottom metal and so on this way

317
00:12:47,910 --> 00:12:45,519
if we're sitting in equilibrium these

318
00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:47,920
two arrows are balanced there's no net

319
00:12:51,269 --> 00:12:49,360
flow

320
00:12:53,509 --> 00:12:51,279
i haven't gone into the details of

321
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:53,519
virtual particles or anything yet

322
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,160
there's there's more subtlety here

323
00:13:01,670 --> 00:12:58,800
okay now let's put a casimir cavity on

324
00:13:04,949 --> 00:13:01,680
top uh we just found out that the

325
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:04,959
casimir cavity blocks the low frequency

326
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:06,560
modes

327
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:08,959
and so that means that we're now going

328
00:13:11,269 --> 00:13:10,240
to have

329
00:13:13,230 --> 00:13:11,279
fewer

330
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:13,240
uh

331
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:16,240
electromagnetic modes from

332
00:13:22,069 --> 00:13:19,120
the zero point field impinging on the

333
00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:22,079
top surface and that diminishes the size

334
00:13:24,790 --> 00:13:23,440
of this arrow

335
00:13:27,030 --> 00:13:24,800
so we've now

336
00:13:30,389 --> 00:13:27,040
notionally at least

337
00:13:33,990 --> 00:13:30,399
broken this balance and so the detailed

338
00:13:36,870 --> 00:13:34,000
balance between down and up has changed

339
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:36,880
we now have a net electron flow from the

340
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:39,120
bottom to the top

341
00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:41,839
i don't claim this is a a rigorous model

342
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:44,320
in any sense it's simply a notional idea

343
00:13:48,230 --> 00:13:46,320
of what's happening

344
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:48,240
so this is the basic structure of our

345
00:13:52,069 --> 00:13:50,880
device uh the actual implementation is

346
00:13:54,230 --> 00:13:52,079
shown here

347
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:54,240
we start with the silicon uh with a

348
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:56,800
glass silicon dioxide coated glass

349
00:14:00,710 --> 00:13:59,440
silicon substrate put a base metal of

350
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:00,720
nickel on it

351
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:03,760
then a very thin double insulator of

352
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:06,480
nickel oxide and aluminum oxide and then

353
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:09,839
a thin layer of palladium on top

354
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,480
uh to form the cavity on top the the

355
00:14:18,790 --> 00:14:16,880
casimir cavity it would be nice if we

356
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:18,800
could do use vacuum deposition but

357
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,560
vacuum deposition doesn't mean

358
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:23,120
depositing a vacuum unfortunately so it

359
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:24,560
means

360
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:25,680
we uh

361
00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:28,240
have to put some sort of a thin

362
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:30,720
transparent medium here we're using

363
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,279
either an organic or a glass or as as

364
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:36,800
our

365
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,320
transparent medium and then we put the

366
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:40,800
mirror on top the measurement circuit

367
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:43,360
goes between these two uh metal

368
00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:45,920
electrodes in the mim device this is a

369
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,560
scanning electron micrograph of one of

370
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:50,320
our devices as you can see they're quite

371
00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:53,920
small the dimensions are about a tenth

372
00:14:58,470 --> 00:14:57,519
of a micron by two tenths of a micron

373
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:58,480
and

374
00:15:02,069 --> 00:15:00,639
so we built these devices i won't go

375
00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:02,079
through the history of it i've talked

376
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:04,480
about that in in our in our previous

377
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:05,279
talk

378
00:15:12,230 --> 00:15:08,160
instead i'll just jump to a result

379
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:12,240
so we did find a significant change in

380
00:15:16,790 --> 00:15:14,560
the current voltage curve so this is

381
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:16,800
current as a function of voltage

382
00:15:22,550 --> 00:15:20,000
for a device with a fat casimir cavity

383
00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:22,560
we have the red line and that's an 1100

384
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:25,600
nanometer cavity when we make a narrow

385
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:28,160
casimir cavity that's the blue line

386
00:15:32,150 --> 00:15:29,279
the uh

387
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:32,160
resistance decreases substantially that

388
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:35,360
is we get more current per unit voltage

389
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:38,399
and so we see what i'm calling a casimir

390
00:15:45,829 --> 00:15:41,440
doping effect that

391
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:45,839
the more modes that we can exclude that

392
00:15:51,430 --> 00:15:48,639
is in the thin cavity the more

393
00:15:53,910 --> 00:15:51,440
we reduce the resistance of the device

394
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:53,920
and we publish this result in a physical

395
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:56,399
review research article the beginning of

396
00:16:01,350 --> 00:15:57,920
last year

397
00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:01,360
and more recently

398
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:05,120
larry ford has applied

399
00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:07,920
some of his theory to looking at this

400
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:10,880
and says yes it does look plausible that

401
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:14,639
the casimir cavity does in fact induce

402
00:16:17,829 --> 00:16:16,160
uh um

403
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:17,839
some injection

404
00:16:22,790 --> 00:16:20,000
into the into the metal insulator metal

405
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:22,800
device which would then

406
00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:26,800
give us the reduction in resistance

407
00:16:30,949 --> 00:16:28,720
but this is a fairly

408
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:30,959
large voltage scale for these tiny

409
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:34,399
devices we're plus or minus 0.3 volts

410
00:16:40,230 --> 00:16:37,600
what happens if we look right in here in

411
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,240
this region for the very low voltage and

412
00:16:43,030 --> 00:16:42,160
very low current

413
00:16:45,749 --> 00:16:43,040
well

414
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:45,759
if we do that we find the strange and

415
00:16:50,389 --> 00:16:48,160
intriguing result that the curve does

416
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,399
not pass through the origin

417
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:52,639
if it doesn't pass through the origin

418
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,800
that means it's either using power or

419
00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:56,399
producing power

420
00:17:03,749 --> 00:17:01,120
solar cells normally operate in the

421
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,759
first quadrant our devices operate in

422
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:05,679
the third quadrant which is also a power

423
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:07,280
production quadrant

424
00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:10,559
so we actually are producing power in

425
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:12,480
these devices

426
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:15,199
and the power is substantial

427
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:17,520
for some of our better devices we get

428
00:17:23,669 --> 00:17:21,039
about 70 watts per square meter

429
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:23,679
now i have to add the caveat that this

430
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:25,839
is these are very small devices so we've

431
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:29,039
not yet made large area devices

432
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:32,400
well if this is really due to zero point

433
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:35,120
energy that would mean that as we

434
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,400
widen the casimir cavity and exclude

435
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:40,559
fewer modes we ought to be getting a

436
00:17:45,110 --> 00:17:42,559
lower current

437
00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:45,120
and that's exactly what we see so this

438
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:46,640
is the short circuit current as a

439
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:49,520
function of the cavity thickness and the

440
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:51,840
thicker the cavity is either for the

441
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,080
organic pmma or for the glass sio2

442
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:59,520
we do get a fall off in the current

443
00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:01,600
there are a number of other uh

444
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:02,960
measurements that we made on these

445
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:04,720
devices which i'm not going to show

446
00:18:08,549 --> 00:18:06,080
right now

447
00:18:11,909 --> 00:18:08,559
for lack of time and we have discussed

448
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:11,919
them previously but i will very briefly

449
00:18:16,150 --> 00:18:14,240
address the issue of the reliability of

450
00:18:19,510 --> 00:18:16,160
the results

451
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:19,520
because this this this is if it is

452
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:22,880
correct uh quite important

453
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:25,440
we verified these results in over 30

454
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:27,440
batches of devices and measured

455
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:30,000
thousands and thousands of devices there

456
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:32,080
is scatter in the results but we

457
00:18:37,830 --> 00:18:35,120
consistently see these trends

458
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:37,840
so could this be due to some sort of a

459
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:39,760
measurement artifact

460
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:41,679
we spent a long time looking for

461
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,440
measurement artifacts and i'm going to

462
00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:46,080
very quickly go through nine tests we

463
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:49,520
made for measurement artifacts

464
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:52,160
one question is whether

465
00:18:57,750 --> 00:18:54,799
this degrades over time is it some sort

466
00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:57,760
of chemical effect and the answer is no

467
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,480
the current is continuous over time this

468
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:02,640
shows four hours we've actually upped

469
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:04,880
this to 24 hours

470
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:07,360
uh if this really is due to

471
00:19:12,070 --> 00:19:09,840
this sort of photoelectric effect that

472
00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:12,080
i'm talking about it ought to scale with

473
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:14,320
area and in fact it does we've made

474
00:19:19,669 --> 00:19:17,360
devices between these submicron devices

475
00:19:22,789 --> 00:19:19,679
up to devices that are 100 microns on

476
00:19:24,390 --> 00:19:22,799
the side and it scales with area

477
00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:24,400
well does it scale with number of

478
00:19:29,990 --> 00:19:26,960
devices so we've made

479
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,000
two types of small arrays these are four

480
00:19:35,669 --> 00:19:32,640
by four arrays and we find in these

481
00:19:38,310 --> 00:19:35,679
arrays that when we have a four by four

482
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:38,320
we do get four times the current and

483
00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,200
four times the voltage

484
00:19:45,029 --> 00:19:43,280
might it just be due to something in our

485
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:45,039
processing because we're cooking the

486
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:47,919
devices as we build them

487
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,240
so we made measurements first with the

488
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:52,799
basic metal insulator metal device there

489
00:19:56,789 --> 00:19:55,280
was no current we heated it to the

490
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:56,799
temperatures that we would use for

491
00:20:02,470 --> 00:19:59,600
processing no current we added the

492
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:02,480
dielectric the the transparent layer

493
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:03,760
that we'd have

494
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:06,720
and uh for the for making the casimir

495
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:09,440
current cavity again no current only

496
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,600
when we put the mirror on do we all of a

497
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:13,679
sudden see a current

498
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:15,520
okay well might it be due to some sort

499
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:17,520
of a leakage effect you've got this

500
00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:20,799
thick uh casimir cavity on top of a

501
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,280
thinner metal insulator metal might

502
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:25,120
there be some charge building up there

503
00:20:28,710 --> 00:20:27,360
that gets through so we measured the

504
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:28,720
relative

505
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:32,559
resistance of the casimir cavity and

506
00:20:38,549 --> 00:20:33,360
the

507
00:20:41,110 --> 00:20:38,559
cavity is at least a million times more

508
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:41,120
resistive it's very unlikely that any

509
00:20:45,029 --> 00:20:42,799
charge that's

510
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:45,039
built up there would get through and

511
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:46,880
give a significant current

512
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:48,960
might it be due to electromagnetic

513
00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:51,760
pickup from the ambient surroundings we

514
00:20:56,390 --> 00:20:54,240
did our measurements in a new metal box

515
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:56,400
and an aluminum metal box and then that

516
00:20:59,750 --> 00:20:58,000
i checked for loaf

517
00:21:03,270 --> 00:20:59,760
low frequency and high frequency

518
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:03,280
electromagnetic pickup and found neither

519
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:04,880
might it be due to some sort of a

520
00:21:09,750 --> 00:21:07,760
thermoelectric effect there could be two

521
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:09,760
one is thermoelectric effects within the

522
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,480
device itself due to very very slight

523
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,159
temperature differences

524
00:21:18,630 --> 00:21:16,320
or thermoelectric effects between the

525
00:21:20,710 --> 00:21:18,640
device and the measurement apparatus so

526
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:20,720
we did some thorough testing for both of

527
00:21:26,390 --> 00:21:22,720
those found nothing

528
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:26,400
uh no no effect and then just recently

529
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,720
we carried out another type of test and

530
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:30,880
this was actually recommended to us by

531
00:21:34,549 --> 00:21:33,039
jeremy mundy monday

532
00:21:36,789 --> 00:21:34,559
and that is

533
00:21:39,190 --> 00:21:36,799
uh maybe there's some sort of a field

534
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:39,200
effect maybe there's a voltage that

535
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:41,520
builds up on the mirror and that voltage

536
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:45,600
somehow induces current in the in the

537
00:21:50,390 --> 00:21:47,919
metal insulator metal device and so we

538
00:21:52,789 --> 00:21:50,400
did a measurement where we varied the

539
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,799
voltage on the mirror up to 10 volts to

540
00:21:57,990 --> 00:21:54,640
see if it changed the current through

541
00:22:00,549 --> 00:21:58,000
the mim the answer is no

542
00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:00,559
all right so that's for the for the

543
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:04,400
those kind of sanity checks what about

544
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,360
some sort of external source for example

545
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:09,840
might it be due to cosmic rays

546
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:13,360
well the highest flux of cosmic rays

547
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:14,880
come from the sun

548
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:17,760
and there are about 10 000 particles per

549
00:22:22,390 --> 00:22:20,159
square meter per second and given the

550
00:22:24,310 --> 00:22:22,400
size of our device that would mean that

551
00:22:26,470 --> 00:22:24,320
one cosmic ray would hit our device

552
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:26,480
every 160 years

553
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:28,640
we seem to see a current that occurs

554
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:30,480
more often than that so i don't think

555
00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:32,480
it's cosmic rays

556
00:22:36,870 --> 00:22:35,280
well what about neutrinos the neutrino

557
00:22:40,070 --> 00:22:36,880
flux is greater

558
00:22:43,029 --> 00:22:40,080
however the absorption cross section for

559
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:43,039
neutrinos is extremely small it's very

560
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:45,120
unlikely that we can capture them

561
00:22:48,549 --> 00:22:47,039
because we can't even get them to be

562
00:22:50,549 --> 00:22:48,559
captured going all the way through the

563
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:50,559
earth never mind in our very thin

564
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:52,960
submicron device so it's not due to

565
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:56,240
neutrinos or cosmic rays

566
00:22:59,669 --> 00:22:57,120
okay

567
00:23:03,350 --> 00:22:59,679
so that's the results now i want to get

568
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:03,360
on to some of the uh new discussion and

569
00:23:09,990 --> 00:23:07,520
uh mulling over uh that we're discussed

570
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:10,000
that's related to the the topics of this

571
00:23:14,950 --> 00:23:11,760
conference

572
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:14,960
um and so first i will

573
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:17,360
discuss the issue of vertical particles

574
00:23:23,110 --> 00:23:19,360
and fast capture

575
00:23:25,669 --> 00:23:23,120
so one way to think about this is we we

576
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,679
know about the photoelectric effect the

577
00:23:28,710 --> 00:23:27,520
photoelectric effect

578
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:28,720
says that

579
00:23:35,029 --> 00:23:33,200
light incoming to a metal surface

580
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:35,039
energizes the electrons and those

581
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:37,440
electrons can be emitted and this was

582
00:23:43,110 --> 00:23:40,159
discovered by hertz in 1887

583
00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:43,120
in 1905 einstein

584
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:45,840
codified it as the photoelectric effect

585
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:50,640
mixing it with planck's idea of a

586
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,000
packet if you like of of electromagnetic

587
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:57,120
radiation which we now call a photon

588
00:24:02,870 --> 00:24:00,320
and so if we have this photoelectric

589
00:24:05,269 --> 00:24:02,880
effect it's been measured by you know

590
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:05,279
shining light on a piece of metal but if

591
00:24:10,630 --> 00:24:08,000
we really have these zero-point energy

592
00:24:13,110 --> 00:24:10,640
fluctuations all over the place in the

593
00:24:15,669 --> 00:24:13,120
vacuum doesn't that mean that we ought

594
00:24:18,470 --> 00:24:15,679
to just be having this huge stream of

595
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:18,480
electrons coming off metal surfaces

596
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:19,840
but we don't

597
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:20,960
why

598
00:24:22,789 --> 00:24:21,840
well

599
00:24:25,029 --> 00:24:22,799
one

600
00:24:26,710 --> 00:24:25,039
way to answer the question

601
00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:26,720
is that

602
00:24:31,750 --> 00:24:30,960
the incoming radiation from the

603
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:31,760
our vacuum

604
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:34,000
virtue is virtual these are virtual

605
00:24:40,310 --> 00:24:37,039
photons and the virtual photons aren't

606
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:40,320
going to give us real electron ejection

607
00:24:45,669 --> 00:24:42,320
so let's get into this virtual photon

608
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:45,679
bit and talk about it a little bit

609
00:24:51,669 --> 00:24:48,480
so virtual particles are transient

610
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:51,679
quantum fluctuations their existence is

611
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:54,799
limited by the uncertainty principle

612
00:24:59,510 --> 00:24:57,679
they're usually interaction particles

613
00:25:01,830 --> 00:24:59,520
they mediate

614
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:01,840
interactions between other particles and

615
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:05,200
you don't see a naked virtual particle

616
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,080
you just see the results of it

617
00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:10,240
and it's well accepted that vacuum

618
00:25:16,230 --> 00:25:14,320
fluctuations produce virtual photons and

619
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:16,240
pairs

620
00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:19,279
can you take these virtual photons and

621
00:25:24,070 --> 00:25:21,520
make them into real photons the answer

622
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:24,080
is yes and it's been demonstrated using

623
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,120
the dynamical casimir effect so the

624
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:29,279
dynamical casimir effect

625
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:32,559
involves taking this casimir cavity and

626
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:36,240
very rapidly moving those plates you've

627
00:25:41,110 --> 00:25:39,520
got to do it at relativistic velocities

628
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,120
and the way that it's actually done in

629
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:43,520
practice is by changing the dielectric

630
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:46,159
of the material so you're effectively

631
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:48,000
moving them back and forth and this was

632
00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:49,360
demonstrated

633
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:52,000
and you actually can see the the

634
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:53,919
existence of real

635
00:25:58,070 --> 00:25:56,080
photons produced from these virtual

636
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:58,080
photons

637
00:26:01,590 --> 00:25:59,200
okay

638
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:01,600
well if you can do that

639
00:26:08,950 --> 00:26:05,360
might it be possible to use fast capture

640
00:26:11,990 --> 00:26:08,960
to do the same thing so use fast capture

641
00:26:14,230 --> 00:26:12,000
to capture these photons these virtual

642
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:14,240
particles or photons or whatever we

643
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:17,120
produce from them and make it real then

644
00:26:23,110 --> 00:26:19,520
and that's really the question that i'm

645
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:23,120
asking can fast capture convert virtual

646
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:26,799
quantum vacuum photons into real photons

647
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:29,039
and we can get a key to understanding

648
00:26:35,029 --> 00:26:32,640
this by looking at evanescent modes

649
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:35,039
because evanescent waves which are well

650
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:36,640
known in optics

651
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:38,960
are in fact virtual photons it's the

652
00:26:43,350 --> 00:26:40,240
same thing

653
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,360
so let's take a look at evanescent waves

654
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:45,200
and see if we can get some understanding

655
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:52,149
we know about total internal reflection

656
00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:54,799
if we have a prism and we've got light

657
00:27:00,390 --> 00:26:57,600
coming into it and it encounters an

658
00:27:03,190 --> 00:27:00,400
interface at a sharp enough angle

659
00:27:06,070 --> 00:27:03,200
then we can get all of the light to be

660
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:06,080
reflected none of it is transmitted if

661
00:27:10,950 --> 00:27:08,320
we're put past this article this this

662
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:10,960
this critical angle

663
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:14,880
um and that's true for all of the power

664
00:27:19,909 --> 00:27:17,200
but there is a strange phenomenon in

665
00:27:21,269 --> 00:27:19,919
that we have an evanescent wave we get

666
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:21,279
some leakage

667
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:23,760
of the electromagnetic energy

668
00:27:28,149 --> 00:27:27,120
into to the outside just outside the

669
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,159
prism

670
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:30,640
there's no power that flows but it is

671
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:32,000
there

672
00:27:37,990 --> 00:27:35,360
if we take another prism and we put it a

673
00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:38,000
few microns away or a few wavelengths

674
00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:40,880
let me say away from the from the first

675
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:44,480
prism no change we still get a total

676
00:27:47,590 --> 00:27:46,559
internal reflection

677
00:27:49,830 --> 00:27:47,600
however

678
00:27:52,389 --> 00:27:49,840
we can frustrate that total internal

679
00:27:54,070 --> 00:27:52,399
reflection and the way we can frustrate

680
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:54,080
the total eternal

681
00:27:59,510 --> 00:27:56,720
reflection is by putting these two

682
00:28:02,950 --> 00:27:59,520
prisms close enough together if we get

683
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:02,960
within a fraction of a wavelength then

684
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:03,760
this

685
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:05,520
uh

686
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:08,240
evanescent wave becomes a propagating

687
00:28:11,990 --> 00:28:10,640
wave and we can get the light to go all

688
00:28:14,630 --> 00:28:12,000
the way through

689
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:14,640
and we can get energy transmitting

690
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:18,000
so by allowing this

691
00:28:21,750 --> 00:28:19,840
close spacing

692
00:28:24,310 --> 00:28:21,760
of these evanescent way

693
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:24,320
with the evanescent wave we've turned

694
00:28:29,830 --> 00:28:26,559
virtual into real

695
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:29,840
we can do the same thing with uh

696
00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:31,279
electrons

697
00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:33,520
so if we have an incident wave of

698
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:35,919
electrons hitting a barrier

699
00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:38,320
in the barrier it'll tunnel through and

700
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:40,399
that's an evanescent state the

701
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:42,880
transmitted wave will then be some

702
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:45,520
fraction of the incident wave and in

703
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:48,480
this way we can capture some of the

704
00:28:54,310 --> 00:28:51,279
incident wave uh in transmission in the

705
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:54,320
other side and then so in this way we're

706
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:55,600
actually

707
00:29:03,110 --> 00:28:58,960
creating a propagating charge

708
00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:03,120
by capturing capturing these virtual

709
00:29:06,549 --> 00:29:04,559
particles if you like or these

710
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,559
effenescent particles

711
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:09,200
and my conjecture is that we're doing

712
00:29:13,510 --> 00:29:12,480
something similar in our devices

713
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:13,520
okay

714
00:29:18,549 --> 00:29:15,760
so we've talked about virtual particles

715
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,559
and capture now let's expand a little

716
00:29:22,710 --> 00:29:20,880
bit to the topic of this

717
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:22,720
conference and talk about the second law

718
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:24,880
of thermodynamics and once we're at it

719
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:26,480
talk about the first law

720
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:27,600
and whether

721
00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:30,000
capturing zero point energy would in

722
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:30,799
fact

723
00:29:40,389 --> 00:29:37,590
the sensible point of view is that

724
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:40,399
forays into free energy inventions and

725
00:29:45,350 --> 00:29:43,200
perpetual motion machines using zero

726
00:29:47,750 --> 00:29:45,360
point energy are considered by the

727
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:47,760
broader scientific community to be

728
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:51,120
pseudoscience this was stated in a u.s

729
00:29:56,310 --> 00:29:54,559
army intelligence report in 2007 so it

730
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:56,320
must be true

731
00:30:00,710 --> 00:29:59,600
and so that's the general view

732
00:30:02,710 --> 00:30:00,720
let's see

733
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:02,720
what we think about it

734
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:04,720
if we want to talk about the second law

735
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:06,640
of thermodynamics the first question

736
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:08,799
we've got to ask of course is which

737
00:30:12,070 --> 00:30:10,960
second law of thermodynamics

738
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,080
and

739
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,080
we can go through carnot's principle

740
00:30:20,870 --> 00:30:16,720
clausius kelvin and so on they all

741
00:30:22,870 --> 00:30:20,880
involve temperature and colder warmer

742
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:22,880
things like that but if we're talking

743
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:24,799
about zero point energy

744
00:30:30,549 --> 00:30:27,760
we believe that zero point energy can

745
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:30,559
exist in the absence of temperature it

746
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:32,240
can exist when you go all the way down

747
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:34,480
to very low temperatures

748
00:30:40,149 --> 00:30:38,240
and uh therefore let's use a statement

749
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:40,159
of the second law that does not involve

750
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,559
temperature and that's planck statement

751
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:44,320
so planck's statement is that every

752
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:46,880
process occurring in nature

753
00:30:51,990 --> 00:30:49,120
proceeds in a way in which the sum of

754
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:52,000
the entropies of all bodies taking part

755
00:30:57,190 --> 00:30:54,320
in the process is increased in other

756
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,200
words we don't have any sort of decrease

757
00:31:02,149 --> 00:30:59,679
in entropy in any closed system and so

758
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:02,159
let's take that as our as our

759
00:31:05,509 --> 00:31:04,159
description of the second law that's

760
00:31:09,509 --> 00:31:05,519
applicable

761
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:09,519
so is there entropy associated with

762
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:12,320
zero-point energy modes in a casimir

763
00:31:16,149 --> 00:31:13,519
cavity

764
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:16,159
i took this from a publication that

765
00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:19,760
looked at a casimir cavity formed by two

766
00:31:24,070 --> 00:31:22,080
metal spheres now it can be planes or

767
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:24,080
spheres i'm using this one simply

768
00:31:27,990 --> 00:31:26,320
because it was a nice plot

769
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:28,000
and this shows

770
00:31:33,990 --> 00:31:30,880
how the entropy varies as a function of

771
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:34,000
spacing between these two metal spheres

772
00:31:39,830 --> 00:31:36,640
and you can see that yes in fact there

773
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:39,840
is a variation of the entropy in a

774
00:31:49,029 --> 00:31:47,830
so what does that mean

775
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:49,039
well

776
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:51,760
if we wanted to change the spacing in a

777
00:31:56,549 --> 00:31:55,039
casimir cavity and get energy out yeah

778
00:31:57,909 --> 00:31:56,559
we may be having some trouble with the

779
00:31:59,269 --> 00:31:57,919
second law

780
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:59,279
so uh

781
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:00,720
a lot of the

782
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,600
earlier concepts for harvesting zero

783
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:05,120
point energy involve

784
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:07,279
allowing the two cavity plates to move

785
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:11,360
together extracting energy from that

786
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:13,679
there's a famous fort paper by forward

787
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:14,960
on this

788
00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:17,840
and that would produce in fact a

789
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:20,000
reduction in entropy there's also an

790
00:32:23,669 --> 00:32:21,760
another prop problem which i won't get

791
00:32:25,350 --> 00:32:23,679
into here and that is that the casimir

792
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:25,360
force is a conservative force so you

793
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:29,519
can't get out more than you put in

794
00:32:33,509 --> 00:32:30,640
so

795
00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:33,519
mechanical extraction is an issue

796
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:34,799
however

797
00:32:39,669 --> 00:32:38,000
our device does not modify the casimir

798
00:32:42,789 --> 00:32:39,679
cavity spacing

799
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:42,799
we have the same device before we

800
00:32:48,149 --> 00:32:45,600
extracting current as we do after we're

801
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:48,159
extracting current the casimir cavity is

802
00:32:52,870 --> 00:32:50,399
a stationary vehicle for making the

803
00:32:55,029 --> 00:32:52,880
device work

804
00:32:56,389 --> 00:32:55,039
so therefore what we really want to look

805
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:56,399
at is

806
00:33:00,950 --> 00:32:59,120
the entropy of the quantum vacuum itself

807
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:00,960
rather than the the entropy inside a

808
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,799
casimir cavity so what is the entropy

809
00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:06,880
of the quantum vacuum

810
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:09,120
well the the standard answer from

811
00:33:13,509 --> 00:33:10,640
quantum mechanics

812
00:33:17,509 --> 00:33:13,519
is it's the the the uh it's a

813
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:17,519
well-defined state it's it's the um

814
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:19,360
the uh

815
00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:22,799
base state for everything and therefore

816
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:25,600
its entropy is zero

817
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:32,240
that if we want to convert that energy

818
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:33,840
into work

819
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:35,919
we're free to do so because we don't

820
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:38,640
have to exclude we don't have to throw

821
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:41,360
out any entropy along the way in order

822
00:33:45,430 --> 00:33:42,799
to make it work

823
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:45,440
so at least on a fundamental level

824
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:47,039
there's no problem

825
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:47,840
in

826
00:33:56,950 --> 00:33:54,240
but there's

827
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:56,960
a corollary to the

828
00:34:01,669 --> 00:33:59,120
second law of thermodynamics which

829
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:01,679
really has to do with perpetual motion

830
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:04,080
so a perpetual motion machine

831
00:34:11,030 --> 00:34:07,519
would do work without an external energy

832
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,040
source and in doing that it either has

833
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,119
to violate the first or the second law

834
00:34:18,869 --> 00:34:15,839
of thermodynamics or both of them

835
00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:18,879
and so let's take a look at what we're

836
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:22,480
doing a little bit more closely and ask

837
00:34:27,270 --> 00:34:24,639
whether we're building some sort of a

838
00:34:28,950 --> 00:34:27,280
perpetual motion machine that violates a

839
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:28,960
fundamental law

840
00:34:34,310 --> 00:34:31,280
so in order to do that

841
00:34:36,389 --> 00:34:34,320
we need to say what we're talking about

842
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:36,399
when we talk about the quantum vacuum in

843
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:38,720
zero point energy there are multiple

844
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:41,919
models of it and i'm going to

845
00:34:48,310 --> 00:34:45,040
describe three here very briefly one is

846
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:48,320
the standard in quantum interpretation

847
00:34:54,950 --> 00:34:49,919
uh

848
00:34:56,510 --> 00:34:54,960
and

849
00:34:59,430 --> 00:34:56,520
then there's also stochastic

850
00:35:02,550 --> 00:34:59,440
electrodynamics which which i i is i

851
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,560
love it's it's a it's a fascinating uh

852
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:04,400
classical approach and then something

853
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:06,400
that i'm calling a thermal model so

854
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,160
let's start with the stochastic with the

855
00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,720
standard quantum interpretation

856
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:12,160
so the standard

857
00:35:17,270 --> 00:35:15,599
uh model the copenhagen interpretation

858
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:17,280
is that

859
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:19,920
the zero point energy is a fixture it's

860
00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:22,640
just a fixture of nature it's there

861
00:35:26,390 --> 00:35:24,720
you can't deplete it you can't add to it

862
00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:26,400
it's just there so if you have a little

863
00:35:30,069 --> 00:35:28,480
box and you could take all the energy

864
00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:30,079
out of the zero point energy out of that

865
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:32,000
little box you'd still have the same

866
00:35:37,510 --> 00:35:35,040
amount of energy in that little box so

867
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,520
if we accept that that would mean that

868
00:35:41,750 --> 00:35:39,760
removing energy would violate

869
00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:41,760
conservation of energy would violate the

870
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:45,040
first law of thermodynamics

871
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:47,040
okay let's take a look at stochastic

872
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:48,720
electrodynamics so stochastic

873
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:51,839
electrodynamics says that the world is

874
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,560
really classical with the addition of

875
00:35:57,670 --> 00:35:56,800
background electromagnetic fields that

876
00:36:00,150 --> 00:35:57,680
make up

877
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:00,160
zero point energy radiation so for

878
00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:03,520
example if we take a look at an atom

879
00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:06,320
according to stochastic electrodynamic

880
00:36:13,829 --> 00:36:10,800
model the atom has a orbiting electron

881
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:13,839
that electron is in fact accelerating

882
00:36:18,550 --> 00:36:16,320
and it's radiating larmor radiation all

883
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:18,560
around and so it would wind down and

884
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:21,280
fall into the into the nucleus except

885
00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:23,280
that there's also incoming radiation

886
00:36:27,670 --> 00:36:25,920
from the vacuum and that dynamic

887
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:27,680
equilibrium between the incoming

888
00:36:32,710 --> 00:36:30,320
radiation and the outgoing radiation

889
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:32,720
support electronic orbitals so there's a

890
00:36:37,270 --> 00:36:35,680
balance of emission and absorption

891
00:36:39,030 --> 00:36:37,280
so if we take

892
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:39,040
there's much much more about stochastic

893
00:36:41,910 --> 00:36:40,640
electrodynamics which we're not going to

894
00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:41,920
talk about now

895
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:46,000
so if we take this interpretation of uh

896
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:48,960
of our quantum appearing world

897
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:52,000
then what does that say about

898
00:36:55,510 --> 00:36:54,400
the first and second laws

899
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:55,520
so

900
00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:56,640
it says

901
00:37:02,870 --> 00:37:00,000
that any way of extracting energy

902
00:37:05,270 --> 00:37:02,880
locally from the zero point fields would

903
00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:05,280
have to be fed by the surrounding

904
00:37:08,470 --> 00:37:07,359
electromagnetic fields

905
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:08,480
and so

906
00:37:13,510 --> 00:37:10,720
in that way we actually would be

907
00:37:15,030 --> 00:37:13,520
conserving energy because we're pulling

908
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:15,040
it from somewhere but we're putting it

909
00:37:18,630 --> 00:37:16,400
in as well

910
00:37:20,390 --> 00:37:18,640
and so the first law is observed and as

911
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:20,400
we said earlier

912
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:22,400
the the zero entropy interpretation of

913
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:24,720
the quantum vacuum says the second law

914
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:27,200
is also being observed

915
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:28,960
finally let's take a look at the thermal

916
00:37:31,109 --> 00:37:30,240
model

917
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:31,119
so

918
00:37:34,150 --> 00:37:32,640
again this is what i'm calling the

919
00:37:36,790 --> 00:37:34,160
thermal model

920
00:37:39,190 --> 00:37:36,800
uh so if we take a look at the formula

921
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:39,200
once again for the uh

922
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:41,760
energy density of zero point energy

923
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,640
radiation the energy density

924
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,640
includes a

925
00:37:50,790 --> 00:37:48,240
temperature dependent term and a

926
00:37:52,870 --> 00:37:50,800
temperature independent term this being

927
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:52,880
the zero point energy

928
00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:55,760
interestingly we can express that same

929
00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:58,640
thing mathematically as a

930
00:38:01,750 --> 00:38:00,640
hyperbolic cotangent

931
00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:01,760
and so

932
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:04,160
if we're actually mixing if you like the

933
00:38:09,190 --> 00:38:06,240
zero point energy in the thermal terms

934
00:38:11,109 --> 00:38:09,200
here this is just a an

935
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:11,119
arithmetic there's nothing

936
00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:13,839
fundamental here but it sure makes me

937
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:14,720
think

938
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:17,680
that these two things the thermal energy

939
00:38:21,910 --> 00:38:19,520
and the zero point energy are

940
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:21,920
fundamentally tied at the hip

941
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:24,079
are they somehow combined

942
00:38:27,589 --> 00:38:25,440
for example

943
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:27,599
even though our quantum mechanical

944
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:29,839
viewpoint right now certainly doesn't

945
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:30,880
say this

946
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:33,359
is it possible that if we were able to

947
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:36,240
extract zero point energy we'd have to

948
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:38,720
feed it uh with thermal energy and so

949
00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:41,200
the the the location where we extracted

950
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:43,359
it from would cool

951
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:46,000
so in that way if zero point energy and

952
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:49,119
thermal energy come from the same source

953
00:38:52,310 --> 00:38:50,880
extracting zero point energy would

954
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:52,320
produce cooling

955
00:38:55,109 --> 00:38:54,400
we would obey the first law because

956
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:55,119
we're

957
00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:59,760
but we would be violating the second law

958
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:01,200
because cooling

959
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:04,960
an ambient situation in equilibrium is a

960
00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:07,119
clear violation

961
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:09,760
so which of these three models do we

962
00:39:16,069 --> 00:39:13,760
take or is there another model entirely

963
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:16,079
let's that's up to you

964
00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:17,920
okay so let's take a look at the summary

965
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:19,599
of our results so far

966
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:21,839
we've made casimir cavities adjoining

967
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:24,240
ultra fast charge transport transport

968
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:28,160
devices uh they produce power

969
00:39:31,430 --> 00:39:29,200
we've

970
00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:31,440
shown that they uh

971
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:32,160
the

972
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:34,000
form for this power

973
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:36,960
varies as we would expect it to if the

974
00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:38,960
source of the power were zero point

975
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:41,280
energy and i wasn't able to show you all

976
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:43,599
of that our papers describe it in more

977
00:39:47,430 --> 00:39:45,119
detail

978
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:47,440
we've looked carefully for artifacts and

979
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:49,359
at least so far we've not been able to

980
00:39:53,670 --> 00:39:51,599
find any sort of artifacts and our

981
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:53,680
measurement apparatus is the most

982
00:39:59,109 --> 00:39:56,320
sensitive available we're also starting

983
00:40:01,030 --> 00:39:59,119
to get some measurements from outside

984
00:40:02,069 --> 00:40:01,040
labs that are corroborating what we're

985
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:02,079
seeing

986
00:40:04,870 --> 00:40:03,760
but we haven't yet

987
00:40:07,030 --> 00:40:04,880
done that

988
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,040
to a sufficient

989
00:40:11,990 --> 00:40:09,119
accuracy for publication

990
00:40:12,790 --> 00:40:12,000
we've written two papers on this so far

991
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:12,800
so

992
00:40:19,349 --> 00:40:16,240
what are the consequences of all of this

993
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:19,359
if the measured 70 watts per square

994
00:40:22,470 --> 00:40:20,880
meter power

995
00:40:25,589 --> 00:40:22,480
that we

996
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:25,599
found in our small devices if that could

997
00:40:30,309 --> 00:40:28,560
be reproduced over large areas

998
00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:30,319
and if we could take these and stack

999
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:31,920
these devices i mean there's no reason

1000
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:35,440
we can't go into the third dimension

1001
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:36,560
we could

1002
00:40:40,790 --> 00:40:38,960
quite easily get lithium-ion battery

1003
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:40,800
power densities

1004
00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:43,599
we could make a very practical uh power

1005
00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:45,119
source

1006
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:46,480
what's the consequence it would be

1007
00:40:52,470 --> 00:40:49,200
revolutionary

1008
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:52,480
okay so let's go quickly to the last

1009
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:56,480
part which is the unanswered questions

1010
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:58,079
a one question

1011
00:41:00,950 --> 00:40:58,880
is

1012
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:00,960
why do we not see

1013
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:03,599
a large photoelectric effect from zero

1014
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:05,760
point energy at all metal surfaces and i

1015
00:41:09,190 --> 00:41:06,880
raised this

1016
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:09,200
and the the the standard answer is that

1017
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:09,920
the

1018
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,640
uh

1019
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:12,000
photons or

1020
00:41:15,430 --> 00:41:13,440
we shouldn't even call them that the

1021
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:15,440
electromagnetic modes

1022
00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:16,720
from the

1023
00:41:20,870 --> 00:41:19,520
vacuum are virtual

1024
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:20,880
can we

1025
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:24,640
use fast capture to convert those uh

1026
00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:26,560
particles those virtual particles to

1027
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:29,599
real particles i don't know

1028
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:31,839
if the zero-point energy hot electron

1029
00:41:36,550 --> 00:41:34,960
excitation between both electric

1030
00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:36,560
electrodes

1031
00:41:40,230 --> 00:41:37,680
exists

1032
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:40,240
why isn't there a huge conductivity even

1033
00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:43,520
in the absence of the casimir cavity

1034
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:46,800
well the model of larry ford

1035
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:51,200
says that in fact we do require a cavity

1036
00:41:56,150 --> 00:41:54,400
uh for the electron injection and he he

1037
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:56,160
discussed that briefly

1038
00:42:01,109 --> 00:41:59,200
earlier in this conference

1039
00:42:03,829 --> 00:42:01,119
however

1040
00:42:06,069 --> 00:42:03,839
larry is very clear to say that he does

1041
00:42:09,270 --> 00:42:06,079
not have an asymmetry in other words

1042
00:42:11,990 --> 00:42:09,280
current goes in both directions so he

1043
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,000
it's not an explanation for the currents

1044
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,480
that we're seeing

1045
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:16,400
um so if there is

1046
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:19,200
a symmetric excitation

1047
00:42:25,030 --> 00:42:21,920
why don't we see currents in both

1048
00:42:28,309 --> 00:42:25,040
directions why do we see an asymmetry

1049
00:42:30,470 --> 00:42:28,319
and i raise the conjecture is that due

1050
00:42:31,349 --> 00:42:30,480
to fast capture

1051
00:42:33,670 --> 00:42:31,359
or

1052
00:42:36,230 --> 00:42:33,680
are we uh really looking at this whole

1053
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:36,240
thing the wrong way altogether and is

1054
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:39,040
there another model for operation that

1055
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:41,200
fits our results a lot better

1056
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:42,960
it's really early in the game and it's

1057
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:45,520
too soon to tell

1058
00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:55,349
thank you garrett that was a wonderful

1059
00:42:57,990 --> 00:42:56,319
talk

1060
00:43:01,589 --> 00:42:58,000
so i'm sure we'll have some questions

1061
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:01,599
here let me get to the participants

1062
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,030
okay we'll start with kent peacock

1063
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:11,750
thanks very much and uh fascinating talk

1064
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:14,000
i don't quite understand every detail of

1065
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:14,960
it but

1066
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:18,240
uh it did strike me that that

1067
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:19,760
there's there may be an interesting

1068
00:43:23,670 --> 00:43:21,200
parallel between

1069
00:43:25,109 --> 00:43:23,680
your work and uh schrodinger's

1070
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:25,119
observations

1071
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:27,200
in 1943 so schrodinger published a

1072
00:43:31,589 --> 00:43:29,119
famous book called what is life

1073
00:43:32,710 --> 00:43:31,599
uh in which he asked himself

1074
00:43:34,790 --> 00:43:32,720
how can we account for the

1075
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:34,800
thermodynamics of a living organism

1076
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,400
because a living organism as long as

1077
00:43:41,349 --> 00:43:38,880
you're still alive it maintains a cons

1078
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:41,359
roughly constant level of entropy

1079
00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:43,119
and um

1080
00:43:46,550 --> 00:43:44,240
how's it

1081
00:43:49,030 --> 00:43:46,560
how is this possible without violating

1082
00:43:50,870 --> 00:43:49,040
thermodynamics somehow and he realized

1083
00:43:53,510 --> 00:43:50,880
of course that

1084
00:43:56,230 --> 00:43:53,520
it's because we metabolize and in the

1085
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:56,240
process we're pumping entropy out

1086
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:57,839
through infrared radiation from our

1087
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:59,359
bodies from

1088
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:01,200
when we exhale carbon dioxide and so

1089
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:03,200
forth we're um so

1090
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:05,760
so we're actually creating more entropy

1091
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:07,520
than we're

1092
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,280
i guess you could say preventing within

1093
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:11,680
our bodies and and so nothing gets

1094
00:44:16,630 --> 00:44:13,920
violated but you can create

1095
00:44:19,030 --> 00:44:16,640
local areas where the entropy is either

1096
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:19,040
constant or or lowered

1097
00:44:23,349 --> 00:44:21,040
but there's always an energy cost so you

1098
00:44:25,109 --> 00:44:23,359
have to so i sort of compare this to

1099
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:25,119
like imagine there's a giant pile of

1100
00:44:28,870 --> 00:44:27,280
basketballs on the gym floor and it's

1101
00:44:30,870 --> 00:44:28,880
going to fall down very easily and

1102
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:30,880
you've got to always keep on putting

1103
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:32,880
basketballs back onto it to hold it up

1104
00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:34,640
again so anyway i just throw that out is

1105
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:36,560
there a parallel between what schroder

1106
00:44:42,390 --> 00:44:38,400
was talking about there and what you're

1107
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:43,190
so

1108
00:44:47,030 --> 00:44:44,480
from a

1109
00:44:48,870 --> 00:44:47,040
conventional thermodynamics point of

1110
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:48,880
view

1111
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:51,040
i'd say no

1112
00:44:55,030 --> 00:44:52,160
because

1113
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:55,040
uh we know that we can re reduce entropy

1114
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:58,800
by adding energy to the system and

1115
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:01,520
as as in what is life

1116
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:03,810
from schrodinger

1117
00:45:07,589 --> 00:45:05,839
[Music]

1118
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:07,599
in this case

1119
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:11,200
we're actually extracting energy

1120
00:45:16,790 --> 00:45:14,000
and we don't seem to be paying any sort

1121
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:16,800
of entropic cost for that

1122
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:19,680
so you know i i really don't know i mean

1123
00:45:25,190 --> 00:45:22,800
i i i honestly and totally don't know

1124
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:25,200
but i i'm not sure that we need to uh

1125
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:27,599
take that approach

1126
00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:29,760
okay i'm willing to bet the energy's

1127
00:45:35,030 --> 00:45:32,400
coming from somewhere but well i believe

1128
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:35,040
it is certainly not to email question

1129
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:37,599
your results but but

1130
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:38,880
we might be

1131
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:40,240
surprised where the energy's coming from

1132
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:42,400
but i'll just leave it at that uh you

1133
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:44,160
you're probably right

1134
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:45,280
well

1135
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:47,119
okay um

1136
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:49,680
paul menker

1137
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:52,400
yeah i just had a couple um

1138
00:45:57,270 --> 00:45:54,000
more maybe more comments than questions

1139
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:57,280
but it is interesting that

1140
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:58,400
you know in some sense all these

1141
00:46:02,390 --> 00:45:59,839
quantities are formally infinite the

1142
00:46:04,309 --> 00:46:02,400
energy of the vacuum so

1143
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:04,319
if you're using kind of underhanded math

1144
00:46:07,589 --> 00:46:06,319
you could have

1145
00:46:09,190 --> 00:46:07,599
you know subtract a finite amount of

1146
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:09,200
energy from an infinite vacuum and not

1147
00:46:12,150 --> 00:46:10,480
kind of change that

1148
00:46:13,109 --> 00:46:12,160
but i think what this might be touching

1149
00:46:18,390 --> 00:46:13,119
on

1150
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:20,710
the the vacuum energy breaks down at the

1151
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:22,319
planck scale um

1152
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:23,520
otherwise everything would turn to a

1153
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,960
black hole and like

1154
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:26,880
all of these ideas like quantum field

1155
00:46:30,390 --> 00:46:28,400
theory formally breaks down

1156
00:46:32,470 --> 00:46:30,400
so it's it's really interesting that

1157
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:32,480
this could be an avenue into these you

1158
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:34,880
know very pressing questions one day um

1159
00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:36,400
but maybe for more of a question do you

1160
00:46:40,150 --> 00:46:37,599
see any

1161
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,160
like true challenges just to scaling up

1162
00:46:44,230 --> 00:46:42,000
the size aside from like the normal

1163
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:44,240
logistic challenges or is there

1164
00:46:48,230 --> 00:46:46,400
any like theoretical or engineering

1165
00:46:50,309 --> 00:46:48,240
reason to think that this is like only

1166
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:50,319
valid at small scales

1167
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:53,599
uh no i think it can be scaled the big

1168
00:46:58,230 --> 00:46:56,079
problem that we're having and the reason

1169
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:58,240
that we're slow at doing that is that

1170
00:47:01,589 --> 00:46:59,920
we're using metal insulator metal

1171
00:47:03,510 --> 00:47:01,599
devices

1172
00:47:05,829 --> 00:47:03,520
which are

1173
00:47:08,550 --> 00:47:05,839
essentially all interface

1174
00:47:10,950 --> 00:47:08,560
and i think

1175
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:10,960
george in the previous talked and

1176
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:13,280
previous talk talked about how really

1177
00:47:18,230 --> 00:47:15,119
the the the devil lives in the

1178
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:18,240
interfaces and it's it's a it's a

1179
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:20,480
challenging technology so at this point

1180
00:47:24,390 --> 00:47:22,960
it's a technological issue sure because

1181
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:24,400
you know there's nothing in principle

1182
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:25,680
wrong with a small effect i mean you

1183
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,839
know g minus two is in the tenth decimal

1184
00:47:31,270 --> 00:47:30,000
place of defined structure constant but

1185
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:31,280
there is

1186
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:33,040
on the rhetorical side something a

1187
00:47:36,069 --> 00:47:34,640
little more convincing i think to a

1188
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:36,079
general audience about just a larger

1189
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:38,720
effect you know there's just there's the

1190
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:40,880
unknown unknowns you know and the larger

1191
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:42,160
the effect the harder it is to explain

1192
00:47:45,589 --> 00:47:43,359
it's just something we're not thinking

1193
00:47:47,589 --> 00:47:45,599
of you know yes i

1194
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:47,599
absolutely agree yeah wonderful talk

1195
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:49,359
thank you thank you

1196
00:47:55,109 --> 00:47:50,400
okay

1197
00:48:00,150 --> 00:47:58,309
i i'm gonna elaborate a little bit um on

1198
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,160
what i mentioned earlier

1199
00:48:04,710 --> 00:48:02,319
um that uh you know i'm coming from the

1200
00:48:06,549 --> 00:48:04,720
computational sciences uh artificial

1201
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:06,559
intelligence software engineering

1202
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:08,160
and for somebody who has to take these

1203
00:48:11,910 --> 00:48:10,319
different scientific models theoretic

1204
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:11,920
models actually has to put them into you

1205
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:13,920
know running systems

1206
00:48:17,750 --> 00:48:15,280
and you know we look at these different

1207
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:17,760
systems and and often you get the same

1208
00:48:22,470 --> 00:48:20,000
thing done with many different models so

1209
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:22,480
we have different evaluation criteria of

1210
00:48:25,270 --> 00:48:23,920
what are the different properties of

1211
00:48:27,190 --> 00:48:25,280
those models

1212
00:48:29,829 --> 00:48:27,200
and when when you take that view and you

1213
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,839
start looking at let's say laws of

1214
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:31,359
physics

1215
00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:32,960
you go to the the point that was talked

1216
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:34,640
about by daniel before that these are

1217
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:36,960
axioms but you also start looking at

1218
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:38,000
well

1219
00:48:41,510 --> 00:48:40,400
how is that axiom actually used and if

1220
00:48:43,270 --> 00:48:41,520
you're looking at let's say the

1221
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:43,280
conservation of energy which underlies

1222
00:48:46,549 --> 00:48:44,480
the second law

1223
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:46,559
a second property of thermodynamics i

1224
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:48,000
don't want to call it a law because when

1225
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,880
you're talking about you're talking

1226
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:50,800
government you're not talking science

1227
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:53,359
sciences you have models and prayer and

1228
00:48:58,309 --> 00:48:55,839
you have properties of models

1229
00:49:01,349 --> 00:48:58,319
and you know so the conservation of

1230
00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:01,359
energy is it an important

1231
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:02,480
property

1232
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:04,880
of any computational model and you're

1233
00:49:07,750 --> 00:49:06,160
going to want to maintain that you're

1234
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:07,760
going to want to

1235
00:49:12,710 --> 00:49:10,480
have conservation

1236
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:12,720
either and that conservation can go

1237
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:16,000
across systems so i'll go back to my you

1238
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,559
know mechanics physics book uh from the

1239
00:49:22,109 --> 00:49:20,640
junior level and how they talked about

1240
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:22,119
different levels they talked about the

1241
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:25,040
cosmological level the macro micro level

1242
00:49:28,069 --> 00:49:26,480
then the atomic level and then the

1243
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:28,079
subparticle level

1244
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:30,400
and yeah they said well we've got the

1245
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:32,960
same conservation law same momentum laws

1246
00:49:37,829 --> 00:49:35,119
at the cosmological and macro micro but

1247
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:37,839
when you start going to the atomic level

1248
00:49:41,990 --> 00:49:39,599
will we change them all up because

1249
00:49:43,990 --> 00:49:42,000
things are not operating the same way

1250
00:49:46,309 --> 00:49:44,000
and then when you go to the subparticle

1251
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:46,319
everything you know forget about

1252
00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:48,319
now so you want to have a computational

1253
00:49:52,950 --> 00:49:50,640
system that crosses those boundaries and

1254
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:52,960
you have the same conservation models

1255
00:49:57,430 --> 00:49:55,040
across all of them

1256
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:57,440
um and you you want to be able to say

1257
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:59,200
okay what's happening at the subpar

1258
00:50:01,750 --> 00:50:00,160
subparticle level what are the

1259
00:50:03,430 --> 00:50:01,760
mechanisms that are going there and you

1260
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:03,440
want that justin can you please get to

1261
00:50:08,230 --> 00:50:06,160
the point sure um so so the point is

1262
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:08,240
when everybody's talking about the

1263
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:10,079
second law of thermodynamics we're

1264
00:50:12,309 --> 00:50:11,200
talking about a property you're talking

1265
00:50:13,589 --> 00:50:12,319
about a comp

1266
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,599
computational property that's very

1267
00:50:16,870 --> 00:50:15,040
valuable and no matter what

1268
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,880
computational model you want to have

1269
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:18,160
you're going to want to have that

1270
00:50:21,589 --> 00:50:19,760
property whether you're saying energy is

1271
00:50:23,990 --> 00:50:21,599
coming from the zero point so there's

1272
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:24,000
some energetic interactions happening at

1273
00:50:28,150 --> 00:50:26,079
the zero point there's some mechanisms

1274
00:50:29,349 --> 00:50:28,160
happening at the zero point and that's

1275
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:29,359
one of the research groups i'm in

1276
00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:31,119
subquantum kinetics and we're studying

1277
00:50:35,349 --> 00:50:32,880
what are the mechanisms at the zero

1278
00:50:37,910 --> 00:50:35,359
point with paul abbey guides group um

1279
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:37,920
and so when when you're actually going

1280
00:50:40,870 --> 00:50:38,880
from there

1281
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:40,880
um you you can have energy and the

1282
00:50:44,069 --> 00:50:42,240
mechanisms that are happening at that

1283
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:44,079
level you know transferring to the

1284
00:50:48,470 --> 00:50:46,559
atomic level which then transfer to the

1285
00:50:49,750 --> 00:50:48,480
macro micro world that we're looking at

1286
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:49,760
these things happening and also the

1287
00:50:54,390 --> 00:50:52,640
cosmological level um okay garrett we

1288
00:50:56,390 --> 00:50:54,400
want to have that energy you want to

1289
00:50:57,829 --> 00:50:56,400
have that conservation across those

1290
00:51:00,309 --> 00:50:57,839
different levels and you want to have a

1291
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:00,319
computational model that has that

1292
00:51:02,870 --> 00:51:02,000
okay

1293
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:02,880
gareth

1294
00:51:08,549 --> 00:51:06,559
uh time will tell we were we're early

1295
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:08,559
in in understanding this

1296
00:51:12,230 --> 00:51:10,880
and i i don't have a an intelligent

1297
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:12,240
answer to that

1298
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:15,680
okay i'd like to call on larry ford

1299
00:51:21,030 --> 00:51:18,720
okay well for first a couple of comments

1300
00:51:23,430 --> 00:51:21,040
this is a very first a very fascinating

1301
00:51:26,390 --> 00:51:23,440
and thought-provoking talk thank you for

1302
00:51:28,710 --> 00:51:26,400
that but i have to say that i i although

1303
00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:28,720
as i explained a couple of days ago i

1304
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:31,200
can understand the symmetric results

1305
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:33,680
that is why why the current why there

1306
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:36,400
can be a current that varies inversely

1307
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:37,839
as the

1308
00:51:44,069 --> 00:51:42,160
an applied voltage i'm completely

1309
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:44,079
puzzled about the uh

1310
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:46,480
the existence of a current at zero

1311
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:49,359
applied voltage and have no no idea

1312
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:51,839
where that could be coming from so in

1313
00:51:56,710 --> 00:51:54,160
terms of that latter result my question

1314
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,720
is are there any other labs that are

1315
00:52:01,349 --> 00:51:58,079
that you know of are attempting to

1316
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:01,359
independently uh confirm your results

1317
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,200
yes so we've had

1318
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:05,520
two confirmations so far

1319
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:08,079
neither of them are uh have been

1320
00:52:13,990 --> 00:52:10,800
replicated enough to be publishable

1321
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:14,000
and uh so i'm i'm waiting uh i'm hoping

1322
00:52:16,790 --> 00:52:15,520
that that will happen

1323
00:52:18,549 --> 00:52:16,800
within

1324
00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:18,559
a fairly short time

1325
00:52:22,150 --> 00:52:19,920
and uh

1326
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:22,160
i agree completely that

1327
00:52:26,230 --> 00:52:24,559
you know this this is a a radical enough

1328
00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:26,240
result that

1329
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:28,240
one really wants confirmation we want

1330
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:30,160
confirmation ourselves

1331
00:52:34,069 --> 00:52:32,480
and so yeah we're doing it as well at

1332
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:34,079
halfway research

1333
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:35,440
thank you i didn't want to mention you

1334
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,119
george in case you didn't want to say

1335
00:52:40,390 --> 00:52:39,520
that but yes

1336
00:52:43,589 --> 00:52:40,400
okay

1337
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:43,599
james lee then uh jacob um did larry

1338
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:45,200
have a second part to us oh i'm sorry

1339
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:46,800
did you have a second part i apologize

1340
00:52:49,510 --> 00:52:48,880
no i finished thank you all right thank

1341
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:49,520
you

1342
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:51,760
james lee

1343
00:52:56,870 --> 00:52:54,480
uh garrett very fascinating talk um our

1344
00:52:59,829 --> 00:52:56,880
question is in your system um is there

1345
00:53:02,790 --> 00:52:59,839
any asymmetric

1346
00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:02,800
uh structure or function there was not

1347
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:04,400
clear to me

1348
00:53:09,670 --> 00:53:06,720
and also another question was you said

1349
00:53:11,589 --> 00:53:09,680
the border energy now if if the enemy

1350
00:53:13,190 --> 00:53:11,599
does not exist it bothers that thing is

1351
00:53:15,510 --> 00:53:13,200
a violation of the first law you know we

1352
00:53:17,510 --> 00:53:15,520
never see anything in my season first

1353
00:53:19,510 --> 00:53:17,520
thought is well well conserved you know

1354
00:53:21,109 --> 00:53:19,520
there's nothing we can't see why they

1355
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:21,119
first law okay

1356
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:21,920
uh

1357
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:23,040
why why

1358
00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:25,520
i wasn't regarded as impossible unless

1359
00:53:30,549 --> 00:53:27,920
we don't understand okay so my question

1360
00:53:33,589 --> 00:53:30,559
to focus on is do your structure in your

1361
00:53:36,069 --> 00:53:33,599
system is any symmetric function because

1362
00:53:38,309 --> 00:53:36,079
if you have a summation function then

1363
00:53:40,870 --> 00:53:38,319
then the second law may or may not apply

1364
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:40,880
okay right so that's my question

1365
00:53:45,190 --> 00:53:44,160
okay so let me quickly show you

1366
00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:45,200
um

1367
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:48,960
yes we do have an asymmetry and that is

1368
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:50,640
i believe the

1369
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:53,200
the con what's producing this here so

1370
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,359
the asymmetry is that we have this metal

1371
00:54:00,390 --> 00:53:57,680
insulator metal device here

1372
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:00,400
and the ac on one side of it there's a

1373
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:02,960
casimir cavity on the other side there

1374
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:04,079
is not

1375
00:54:08,069 --> 00:54:05,440
and

1376
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:08,079
that i believe is what is inducing the

1377
00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:10,400
the flow of energy i don't think we're

1378
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:12,640
violating the first law but as i

1379
00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:14,640
described in in

1380
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:16,960
the various models really it depends on

1381
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:18,960
what model you choose i should mention

1382
00:54:22,549 --> 00:54:21,040
one thing in passing

1383
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:22,559
i developed this

1384
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:23,520
about

1385
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:26,880
five or six years ago uh this concept it

1386
00:54:30,549 --> 00:54:28,079
it wasn't something where we

1387
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:30,559
accidentally discovered an uh uh

1388
00:54:34,549 --> 00:54:32,240
something in the lab and tried to figure

1389
00:54:36,230 --> 00:54:34,559
out it was actually the other way around

1390
00:54:38,309 --> 00:54:36,240
we first had the concept and then we

1391
00:54:40,390 --> 00:54:38,319
went around we went about building the

1392
00:54:42,710 --> 00:54:40,400
device to match the concept

1393
00:54:44,309 --> 00:54:42,720
and lo and behold it exactly matched

1394
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:44,319
what i was hoping

1395
00:54:52,789 --> 00:54:49,430
thank you okay so now i see yeah that

1396
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:52,799
looks like there's some symmetrical uh

1397
00:54:59,109 --> 00:54:55,599
could be possible thank you

1398
00:55:01,030 --> 00:55:00,150
okay

1399
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,040
um

1400
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:03,200
okay

1401
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:07,200
it was fascinating uh your your uh your

1402
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:09,280
speech about this

1403
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:12,400
i had the feeling that is that

1404
00:55:17,910 --> 00:55:14,799
that's um

1405
00:55:21,589 --> 00:55:17,920
that was so fascinating because it was

1406
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:21,599
it was crowned with uh with uh success

1407
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:22,559
yes

1408
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:25,280
so uh it was exactly like the same idea

1409
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:27,920
why don't you put the second

1410
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:30,720
customer cavity underneath and

1411
00:55:34,789 --> 00:55:33,520
look what happened

1412
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:34,799
that's right

1413
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:36,720
thank you would you like to come to my

1414
00:55:46,710 --> 00:55:44,309
these devices are very challenging

1415
00:55:47,910 --> 00:55:46,720
unfortunately when you've got these thin

1416
00:55:50,230 --> 00:55:47,920
layers

1417
00:55:52,870 --> 00:55:50,240
everything depends on everything else

1418
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:52,880
and if we put down for instance the

1419
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:54,799
polymer below and then put metal

1420
00:55:59,030 --> 00:55:56,640
insulator metal on top

1421
00:56:01,750 --> 00:55:59,040
it changes everything all the interfaces

1422
00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:01,760
are changed and we would need you know

1423
00:56:06,870 --> 00:56:04,160
months to to refine our process to get

1424
00:56:09,190 --> 00:56:06,880
it to work again so i agree it would be

1425
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:09,200
very interesting we just haven't done it

1426
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:11,040
yet

1427
00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:12,720
okay

1428
00:56:17,270 --> 00:56:13,839
all right

1429
00:56:19,829 --> 00:56:17,280
any final questions

1430
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:19,839
okay gareth thank you so much for this

1431
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:21,599
wonderful talk and i think people will

1432
00:56:25,750 --> 00:56:23,680
be talking about this for a long time

1433
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:25,760
at this point i think we'll take a maybe

1434
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:27,359
a three or four minute break to set up

1435
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,040
for the um